John Robertson (Glasgow, Anniesland): I shall try to address the matter without engaging in political points scoring against a party that has shown a sad lack of understanding of industry in Scotland. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Renfrewshire (Jim Sheridan) on securing the debate. Once again, he has shown leadership on an issue about which he is knowledgeable.

It will not come as a surprise to hon. Members to learn that I intend to speak about shipbuilding and that I will concentrate in the main on the Govan and Scotstoun yards. The Scotstoun yard is in my constituency and I hope that it has enough work to last beyond my retirement, which is something that I doubt that any previous Member for my constituency-its boundaries have changed-could have said.

The shipbuilding industry was decimated by successive Governments in the 1970s and written off for privatisation in the 1980s. It is easy to sell off an industry for money, but it is impossible to invest while money is being given out to shareholders or friends, which is exactly what the Conservative Government did. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) has been chirping away. I say to him that when an industry has been run down and has not been invested in, it takes time to build it up. The fact of the matter is that 3,000 jobs still exist thanks to the Labour Government. He may not want to accept that, but it is a fact.

Mr. Peter Duncan : Am I to understand it that the hon. Gentleman’s argument is that an industry must be in the public sector in order to make significant investment? If that is the case, it is an extraordinary argument that belies the evidence of the past two decades. Industries that require investment can generate it in private industry and have done so successfully in Scotland.

John Robertson : I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman, but he cannot put words in my mouth. I never mentioned that point. I said that his party sold off the shipbuilding industry for money alone and did nothing about investing in what was left because it wanted to make sure that there would not be a shipbuilding industry in this country. There were 200,000 workers in the industry in 1960, but now there are only 30,000 in the whole country. The demise of the shipbuilding industry is sad.

Angus Robertson : The hon. Gentleman’s interest in shipbuilding is undisputed, but can I ask him whether there are more or fewer shipbuilding jobs in Scotland since Labour came to office?

John Robertson : I thought that the hon. Gentleman had answered that. There can be no jobs without investment, which is at last coming into shipbuilding. He knows that there are fewer jobs, and I know that. Why are there fewer jobs? It has nothing to do with the Labour Government, which is what he would like to suggest. Thanks to the Labour Government, there are more jobs today than there were a year ago, and there will be more of them in the years to come.

Modern apprenticeships-the first for more than 20 years-are currently increasing employment on the Clyde. There were 42 new apprenticeships last year; there are 112 this year; and there will be more to come in the following years. I do not take credit for that as a Labour Member; I take credit for helping to support my constituency and my constituents. The company has been pointed in a direction that it had forgotten about.

Jim Sheridan : As a former shipyard worker who was made redundant, I know that the reasons for job losses were the introduction of new technology-shipbuilding industries elsewhere have been decimated by new technology-and, most important, the end to the demarcation of yards. That relates to the point about congratulating the workers of Glasgow and Govan. The job losses were not the result of any lack of investment.

John Robertson : I thank my hon. Friend for that point.

The fact of the matter is that three Type 23 frigates have been sold to the Sultan of Brunei in recent years. One is ready to be delivered, with the other two to follow shortly. There are also six Type 45 destroyers and two ALSLs-alternative landing ships logistics-to be built, and we have more than our fair share of carrier work for the Scotstoun and Govan yards. I hope that the Ferguson yard in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for West Renfrewshire picks up its fair share of work. It has 400 workers who need work.

My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (David Cairns) has also seen shipbuilding decimated in his area. Today, shipbuilding practically does not exist in the lower Clyde. The upper Clyde is thriving, but on reduced amounts of work. The Ferguson yard must be examined too. We need the work that exists, and more of the same. It is up to us on the Clyde to show that we are still a force to be reckoned with.

Mr. Davidson : I suggest that my hon. Friend does not take too much for granted. It is not true to say that the aircraft carrier construction has been firmly committed to the Clyde. It is clear that the initial decision leads in that direction, but a number of break points during the process of ordering and contracting could easily result in manufacturing work being taken to a foreign yard should Scotland become independent. Similarly, the second tranche of frigates has not been firmly committed at this stage, and they could be taken away and given to Vosper if Scotland became independent. Export orders are dependent on a core stream of work from the Royal Navy, and they might also be lost if Scotland became independent. Is my hon. Friend clear about that?

John Robertson : I do not need to re-emphasise my hon. Friend’s point, but I commend him for the work that he has done as chair of the all-party group on shipbuilding and ship repair. I have no doubt that the lobbying of Ministers by him and other colleagues helped to secure orders for the Clyde and other areas of the country. They got the rules changed when they managed to secure written confirmation from the Minister with responsibility for defence procurement that all MOD ships would be built in Britain, and that no single part would be built elsewhere, such as in Holland as happened in the case of one ship. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. Davidson) helped to lead that effort, and it was a great win for those who have been fighting for so many years.

Where will we get more ships? My hon. Friend said that we should not stand by and say that the ships we have now will be sufficient for the Navy for evermore. We must look to future sales. Most of the early attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq came from ships: rockets were fired from ships, planes were launched from ships, and troops were initially landed from ships. Britain does not have that kind of naval force at present. I know that that is being considered under the strategic review, which represents a new chapter. I hope that it continues to be a subject of the strategic review as the days and years go by. We cannot stop at this point; there is more to be done.

We must consider the types of ships that we have. There are ports throughout the world now that will not admit single-hull ships. We may have to build many double-hull ships. My question to the Minister, which I do not expect her to answer today, is how many of our naval ships are single hull and how many will have to be replaced with double-hull ships? Perhaps I could take credit for stimulating shipbuilding, particularly on the Clyde.

I have spoken for long enough-some would say too long. Scotland has been very important to the defence industry for many years. Even today, with only 5 per cent. of the population, it still supplies 8 per cent. of the troops on the ground. We have carried out most of the shipping of goods in the past, and we have done more than our fair share of swirling the kilts, playing the pipes and leading the fight from the trenches. Scotland has a proud heritage and tradition in the defence industry, and I hope that it will continue.

I conclude with a bit of point scoring. Withdrawal from NATO would be an absolute disaster, not just for Scotland but for Britain and the rest of Europe. I shake my head at some of the things that have been said about that. I ask the Minister to support the industry in the future.

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