John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): Thank you, Mr. Amess, for allowing me the opportunity to speak. It is important that we do not have a misrepresentation of the facts, and that we stick to what is true, in order to have an informed debate rather than a slanging match between people whose names I am unsure of. But I digress.

At this point, I should declare that I am chair of the all-party nuclear energy group. Over the past few weeks, the question of nuclear build has become a major news item and been given considerable time in the media. The Scottish Affairs Committee, in deciding to hold its review of Scotland’s energy needs, looked at all forms of energy. Scotland, in particular, has been extremely fortunate in its rich abundance of oil and gas, but it is recognised that all those reserves are in decline. We are now a net importer of gas, and it is estimated that we will depend on gas imports for around 70 per cent. of our future energy needs. Those imports will be from Russia and countries in the middle east, which may be regarded as less than stable.

Other problems have become apparent in a world that uses more and more natural energy resources. While living in a market economy, we will have to compete with the US, China and India—and even those within the European family—for energy supplies. In a market-driven economy, what price gas and oil in a world vying for diminishing energy sources?

Some say that we previously depended on imported energy, but surely we all recognise that world energy demand is increasing at an alarming rate. We will have to compete in a free-market economy for our gas supplies, which will result in the highest bidder winning the supply. What price gas and oil in those circumstances? At a time when we are looking to make poverty history, what chance does Africa have?

Another factor is that in Scotland the largest contributor to our energy supply is nuclear power—the 2003 figures show that the relevant figure is more than 37 per cent. The industry has an outstanding safety record. That is why I welcome the recent media attention. If such interest leads to a grown-up, open and informed debate about nuclear energy, security of supply and our future energy needs, the media will have done this country a real service. It is about time it stopped seeking sensational headlines and represented the facts about our energy future to the nation.

Mr. Weir : The hon. Gentleman has made a valid point about the need to import gas and the security of supply, but does he accept that if we opt for new nuclear build we will also have to access uranium? There is a finite supply of uranium in the developed world, which means that if we have nuclear power stations requiring uranium, we will end up importing it from unstable countries of the sort that we now rely on for natural gas.

John Robertson : I am sure that the unstable position of Canada will come as an extreme shock to the people there. I am quite happy to bandy around the facts. I assure the hon. Gentleman that there is more than enough uranium to last quite a few lifetimes, never mind his and mine. If he does not agree, I am happy to furnish him with the information so that he might become a convert somewhere on the road to Damascus.

Mr. Hood : Is it not the case that new build nuclear facilities will produce a tenth of the waste of the existing nuclear power stations?

John Robertson : My hon. Friend makes a good point. It is even better than he says: if we had 60 power stations for 60 years, we would be talking about a tenth of what we have already used. The waste in question is not part of the argument. The waste we currently have and what we do with it is where the real argument lies.

Sir Robert Smith : The hon. Gentleman talked about the market and predicted high prices, long-term, for energy. Why is the market not saying, “We will build new nuclear power stations now.”? The Prime Minister triggered an argument with his review. He will be considering what extra incentives have to be given and what financial burdens have to be put on users to achieve viability, because there is no physical impediment to building new nuclear power stations. The impediment, currently, is economic.

John Robertson : I disagree with the hon. Gentleman, because I see part of the impediment straight across the Chamber from me: parties such as his have caused so many problems in the planning area that it has become practically impossible for anybody to have a new build anywhere in this country. Perhaps planning and how we go about arranging whether planning permission should be given are issues that we need to examine in relation to new build.

Mr. Harris : Was my hon. Friend lucky enough to catch the interview with Iain Smith MSP on “Newsnight” the night before last? He perfectly encapsulated the Liberal Democrat position on nuclear energy, which is that the party is perfectly open-minded on every option, provided it is not nuclear. Is that not the equivalent of Henry Ford saying, “You can have any colour of car you want, provided it is black.”?

John Robertson : My hon. Friend makes a valid point. The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael), who sadly was in his place earlier and has now departed, made a similar argument during the launch of the report. He said that he would not accept nuclear, as did the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir). They would not accept nuclear in any shape or form and said that nuclear must not be part of any form of energy policy in the United Kingdom. Such an argument is contrary to the report, which asks for a balanced energy policy for the country.

I will move on. The green lobby has been successful in perpetuating the myth that the media have inadvertently assisted with. Professor James Lovelock, of whom my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) is obviously a fan, has said:

“I am deeply concerned that public opinion and consequently the government listen less to scientists than they do to the Green lobbies. I know that these lobbies are well intentioned but they understand people better than they do the Earth”.

This is a man who was a member of Greenpeace for more than 30 years and who planted more than 20,000 trees in his bid to help the environment.

Under the heading, “How best to meet the shortfall?” the Scottish Affairs Committee says:

“The most appropriate way of introducing this section of the Report is by quoting from a recent ‘postnote’ from the Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology (POST):

‘The UK’s gas reserves are declining. Government . . . analysts estimate that by around 2006 the UK will no longer be self-sufficient in gas . . . and will revert to being a net gas importer.’”

How true is that? It did not take long before that fact was proved correct, which shows how well our Committee did.

Mr. Jim Devine ( Livingston) (Lab): I have become a very sad individual since I came to this place, as this week I read “Raising the Standard”, a paper issued by the Scottish National party. It says that, for those people in Scotland stupid enough to have voted for independence, it has issued a road map. It will negotiate with the Government, the EU, the BBC, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, the Post Office and the boundary commission, as well as on social security and the currency. The one thing it will not negotiate away are the people who provide gas for this country, so people who vote for an SNP Government will be voting to put the lights out in Scotland.

John Robertson : I say to my hon. Friend that I do not think that the SNP could draw up a street map, let alone a road map.

Mr. Weir : I am sorry that the hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Devine) is so challenged in his reading. If he were not, he would know that Scotland—it is Scotland’s energy needs that we are supposed to be discussing—produces more gas than it uses. The UK is a net importer of gas.

John Robertson : I shall treat that input with the contempt it so richly deserves.

To move on, gas is a large proportion of the UK’s energy supply. Gas-fired power plants are the main method of power generation. As I said, the UK will become a gas importer. If we go down the gas road, more emissions will go into the environment.

The Committee’s report made 12 recommendations, and the Government provided a response. I again highlight a recommendation that is, in our view, important: the need for an urgent energy audit. That recommendation arose from the evidence available to the Committee. We strongly believe that such an audit would identify the energy sources available. It would also allow an analysis of the effectiveness of our current investment in, for example, renewable energy and show its cost-effectiveness—whether renewable energy sources are delivering consistently, and how effective they might be as a guaranteed source of power generation.

Such an audit would identify our energy strengthens and weaknesses. The issue is not a matter of arguing for one source in preference to another, but of identifying our energy portfolio and ensuring that we have the correct energy mix, as well as a balanced energy policy most suitable to the needs of Scotland and the UK. That is what the report is all about.

Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): I caught the hon. Gentleman’s earlier reference to me on the monitor as I left my office. If he had told me that he was going to refer to me, I would have taken care to be in my place during his speech. I must say that he misrepresented my position, and I hope he will correct the record. At no stage during the launch of the report did I say that I am opposed to nuclear power in all circumstances. I said that I would not countenance nuclear power unless and until the waste issue was clarified or resolved. Nothing that the hon. Gentleman has said—nothing that I have heard, anyway—makes me think that he has any answer to that.

John Robertson : I thank the hon. Gentleman, whom I hold in high regard. Because of that high regard, he should have known that I would mention him. So much for hindsight. On his question, my recollection is more, shall we say, simple. I know what a yes is, and what a no is. He can sugar it up any way he likes, but I know where he is coming from. As for the waste, I tell him, and all Liberal and SNP Members, that if I could solve their waste problem, assuring them that waste could be stored securely and safely, and could be recovered in case of any other emergency, would they be willing to back nuclear energy? If so, I look forward to writing to them to provide that information, and they can join my group as soon as they like.

Mr. Alan Reid : Will the hon. Gentleman give us the information now?

John Robertson : No. [Laughter.] Having said that, I think the information may be further on in my speech. It is, so I am being a bit cheeky. I shall come to that suggestion.

Although the debate seems to have turned into a debate about nuclear energy, I am trying to tell Opposition Members and my hon. Friends on the Government Benches that the Select Committee report is not about nuclear energy; it is about a sustainable energy policy for the needs of Scotland. We—apart from two Members—thought that nothing should be excluded. That was sensible, and it is probably why the report has been well received in several quarters, and not only the nuclear lobbies. Other lobbies consider it balanced, and I commend everybody who took part and who gave evidence to the Committee.

There has been a mad dash down the wind farm route. Many Members have mentioned that, and I am sure that many Opposition Members shall mention it. At the moment, we cannot make wind farms work effectively. I am being generous, but wind power is intermittent at best and will be only about 30 per cent. effective. There are a substantial number of wind farms, and an audit is under way to establish their contribution. It would be beneficial if we assessed their value and obtained the figures.

Mark Lazarowicz : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way again, given the number of interventions he has taken. No one suggests that wind energy can meet all the energy needs of Scotland or anywhere else, but on the question of wind energy should he not bear in mind the latest figures from the Department of Trade and Industry, which suggest that the cost for onshore wind is now significantly lower than that for new nuclear build? The projection for offshore wind is that its cost, too, could fall below that of nuclear by 2020.

May I suggest to my hon. Friend that the report is a little too critical of the possibility of renewable energy, which it describes as somewhat uncertain? That contrasts with its description of nuclear fusion as a possible major source of power in the not too distant future, which is somewhat optimistic to say the least.

John Robertson : It all depends on what my hon. Friend means. If 30 or 40 years is in the distant future, that possibility is in the distant future. However, we have a short time in which to secure the world’s climate, so we may not be able to wait for fusion. Costs move all the time, and I shall come on to them. I accept what he says, because I do not have the figures to hand. I am happy to receive them, if he wishes to send them to me.

I am aware that other Members want to speak and I am trying to cut out parts of my speech, but I want to mention the Royal Academy of Engineering. It conducted an excellent study of price comparisons, and nuclear energy came out favourably. Renewables cost approximately double, and there were concerns about safety. The nuclear industry has some of the highest safety standards in the world. We should continue to ensure that there are supplies worldwide.

More than 30 new reactors have been built. Russia is building nuclear power plants in order to sell its gas and oil to us. I wonder why. Finland, rather than depend on its neighbour Russia for gas, is building its fifth nuclear power plant. China has built six of which I know, and many more are being built. France, our near neighbour, depends on nuclear energy for more than 70 per cent. of its energy. I am aware that none of these arguments will change the minds of the energy troglodytes today, but we must try to educate them.

Our energy policy should not become subject to party politics; it is much too important for that. We need to develop an agreed energy policy framework, and it should have cross-party support. Unfortunately, the Liberals and the Scottish National party will continue to endanger the future energy policy of the country. Their rejection of the nuclear option would mean dependence on imported gas for the bulk of our energy needs. They will argue for other forms of energy, knowing that their policies are simply a leap in the dark because those forms of energy currently represent neither a core source nor a proven technology on the scale we require to maintain our security.

Sweden voted to phase out its nuclear industry some 25 years ago. It now recognises the folly of that decision. It found that the alternatives were not as cost-effective as it first thought, and it is now Europe’s third largest consumer of nuclear-generated energy.

This week, it was reported on Teletext that Ofgem had asked for an inquiry into why the rest of the European Union is not selling more gas to Britain, when prices have been so high. We should remember that when we start talking about importing gas from places such as Russia and the middle east, and about a pipeline that crosses the whole of Europe. There have been claims that rules in other EU countries mean that gas held in storage is not released for export. According to the BBC, Ofgem has asked the European Commission for an investigation into the recent high prices.

Mr. Carmichael : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. Please can he explain this to me: if Russia is such an unstable nation that we should not buy our gas from it, why is it stable enough to be trusted with nuclear power stations?

John Robertson : The hon. Gentleman knows that the Russians have their own technology and have built their nuclear power stations themselves. It would have been very difficult to stop them doing so, particularly as Russia used to be one of the most powerful countries in the world, but that is not to say that I would not have liked to have done that.

I want to move on to green matters. We must listen to those who, because of the current serious situation, have converted and become supporters of nuclear energy. An article in The Sunday Times reported the comments of Professor James Lovelock—a pal of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith. He gave evidence to the Committee, and he has impeccable credentials as an environmentalist and a scientist.

Several hon. Members rose—

John Robertson : I will not give way.

Professor Lovelock described global warming as

“the greatest test humanity has ever had”,

and he called for a nuclear programme

“whose scale dwarfs the space and military programmes”.

He also said:

“I find it extraordinary that the one safe and proven energy source that has minimal global consequences, nuclear power, is so readily rejected.”

The same article reported that Hugh Montefiore, former Bishop of Birmingham, had quit the board of Friends of the Earth after coming out in favour of nuclear power. He said:

“I have concluded that the solution is to make more use of nuclear energy.”

The report also referred to Sir John Houghton, a well-known and respected scientist and former head of the Met Office. He said nuclear power is “increasingly attractive”.

I recognise that environmentalists are used to scientists suggesting that more technology can solve such problems, but I believe they were shocked when Peter Harper and Paul Allen, leading green thinkers from the Centre for Alternative Technology, made a similar suggestion.

If we are serious about solving the problem of our CO 2 emissions and ensuring security of supply—if we want to avoid the lights going out—we must be bold and have a serious debate to find the best solution to the energy problems we might face in the near future.

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