John Robertson:

I congratulate Mr. Crabb on his private Member’s Bill. I am here not to criticise but to support him, although with reservations and questions that I hope the Minister will answer; I hope that the Minister will give me the clarification that I need. The hon. Gentleman was extremely generous in giving way. It is helpful to be able to get answers from the promoter of the Bill, and I listened intently to the hon. Gentleman’s remarks.

It would appear that the Bill is about horses and riding schools, about which the hon. Gentleman obviously knows a great deal. However, the Bill is about animals in general. In answer to a question about dogs, the hon. Gentleman said that a certain issue was covered by other Acts. However, if that were so, the Bill would be entitled “Animals Act 1971 (Amendment) Bill—except for dogs”.

Andrew Dismore (Hendon, Labour):

I had wanted to put that point to Mr. Crabb in an intervention. He talked about other legislation relating to dogs. That is primarily made up of two Acts—the Guard Dogs Act 1975 and the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. Neither of them create civil liability; they create only criminal liability and therefore are not a basis for a compensation claim.

John Robertson:

That brings me to animals’ actions that affect my constituents. I am a city MP; as far as I know, there are no farms within the constituency boundary, although a few bounce off it.

Jonathan R Shaw (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Marine, Landscape and Rural Affairs) and Minister for the South East), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Chatham & Aylesford, Labour):

You can spot them.

John Robertson:

One can certainly spot the skyscrapers, flats and housing estates; closer into Glasgow are the more affluent houses, and there are certainly no farmyards or riding schools around there. One would not expect to see them in the city centre.

As an MP I go to the hustings fairly regularly, depending on the election; I also regularly do campaigning work. An unbelievable number of dogs attack my colleagues, yet when, for example, a finger was half bitten off, there was no recourse for finding out who was liable. The animal concerned was not “dangerous” according to the description, yet it was pretty dangerous to the helper putting an envelope through the letterbox. We try to train our helpers not to do that, but the new letterboxes with brushes make that very difficult. If that dog was dangerous for an electioneer, what chance would a postman delivering letters on a regular basis have?

Andrew Dismore (Hendon, Labour):

My hon. Friend has hit on an important point. I have been bitten while election campaigning. During my very first election in 1982, when I was running for the council, a Jack Russell took a bit out of my calf on election day. The second time was during the 2001 general election, when a Cairn terrier nipped my finger. If the hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire had got his way, I am not sure that I could have brought a claim in either case—not that I would have done so anyway. On the third occasion, I put my finger through a letterbox and something—I have no idea what—got me. My finger was bleeding when it came out.

John Robertson:

My hon. Friend has told a good story, although I could probably beat it.

Let me give an example. We talk about strict liability in respect of the Bill, but what does that mean? On a twilight evening during the 2001 general election, I was walking down Lincoln avenue, a large road in my constituency. It was about 9 o’clock at night and dark. I went to put a leaflet through a letterbox, but did not spot two Alsatians chained to a drainpipe. I had not expected to find them there, that is for sure—and I certainly would not have expected such dogs to keep quiet until I was about two inches from them, when they started to bark and jump at me. Who had the liability in that situation? Were the dogs entitled to be there? Was any person who went through the gate, which was open, liable? Alternatively, did the owner, who stupidly left the dogs out for whatever purpose, have liability?

I have read bits and pieces about strict liability in respect of the Bill. Animals are not usually bad; they do not deliberately attack somebody unless the owner trains them to do so, as happens in a lot of cases, or unless such behaviour is a characteristic of their breed and it is in their genes—as with hunting dogs, for example. We would not expect somebody to have such an animal in a built-up, city centre area and certainly not to chain them to a drainpipe in a garden. Such strong animals could pull the drainpipe down and attack passers-by. Would that be the dog’s fault? In some cases, it would not be; it is usually down to the owners. I have great sympathy for people who are attacked by animals and I would complain about the animal in such cases, and it is the animal who will eventually suffer. In a lot of cases, if it has a history of such behaviour, it will be put down, yet we would never think of putting down the owner for the treatment of the animal or for teaching it to act in such a way. I therefore have a problem with strict liability.

Hon. Members have discussed the Animals Act 1971 and its intent. We are now in 2008—quite a long way down the road from 1971. I look favourably on the Bill because the hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire is trying to tackle what has happened in the meantime. However, intent and need are not the same and I wonder about the treatment of the ordinary person under the Bill. The Wild Mammals (Hunting with Dogs) Bill caused all sorts of problems. It was said that the dogs were always under control, that the riders knew what they were doing and that the measure was unnecessary because we simply had to make sure that the existing rules were used. Similar comments have been made about the Bill that we are debating. Yet we know that a pack of animals does not act in the same way as an individual animal; animals act differently in a group. Some animals hunt in packs and their behaviour in the pack is different from that when they are individual pets in somebody’s sight.

We discussed the problem of the plastic bag and a horse rearing. If we substitute a child—or an adult—for the plastic bag, and the person is crippled by the horse, as in the case that my hon. Friend Mr. Dismore mentioned, what sort of liability do they have? Their lives might be drastically changed because of an accident with an animal. How do they ensure that they are looked after? I have difficulty with that. It is easy for people to say that the animals were simply doing what they do, and that the horse reared because the child or adult frightened or shocked it. However, the person—I would call him or her the victim—has to live with whatever disability they end up with.

Andrew Dismore (Hendon, Labour):

Let us suppose that a family goes out for a walk to the countryside on a Sunday afternoon. They are walking along a country lane that is a bridlepath, when a horse comes the other way and injures a child, who could be crippled. Under the Bill, the child may end up with no compensation, and the family would be left looking after that child for the rest of its life with no financial support from any insurance company, because most people will not be insured against that sort of risk. Who should bear the risk—the stable, which makes money out of a business, or the injured child’s family?

John Robertson:

That is also my concern. My hon. Friend is much more knowledgeable than I am on that matter and I am sure it will be well worth listening to his contribution.

The problem is that the lawyers and the courts may not interpret the Bill in the way that we intend. I do not have my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon or anyone else in the Chamber in mind, but I have always had a thing about lawyers because they are the only ones who ever seem to make money these days. We are being crucified over expenses and various other items for which we might not claim. I want to put it on the record that I do not have a ?10,000 kitchen, although my wife phoned today and said, “Does that mean we can get a new kitchen?” I said no. However, I digress. Lawyers will always interpret things differently. Someone once said that two lawyers together will give two different explanations because they can then both make money. Therein lies a problem. I am attracted by the idea of trying to define things better, as the hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire would like to do, because I would prefer such matters to be tackled out of court, by insurance companies.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon made some good comments about insurance companies. He said that there had not been many cases under the 1971 Act. That surprised me because I would have thought, given that the hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire is promoting the Bill, that there must have been several cases about which people had a problem. The hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire mentioned the problem of insurance costs for a riding school increasing by a large amount—I cannot remember whether he said that they had doubled—probably by much more than anybody had reason to expect. Those running a business—and a riding school is a business—would probably not have catered for that and would have to find the money from somewhere. That is not right. However, the argument is not with the Bill but with the insurance companies, if they are ripping people off. Bill Wiggin shakes his heard and he may be right—I am not an expert, but if insurance policies go through the roof and no extra claims are made on them, I cannot understand why they would have to increase to the amount that the hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire suggested.

Andrew Dismore (Hendon, Labour):

The hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire said that only a tiny number of cases would be affected. If that is the case, the Bill cannot possibly have a significant impact on the industry in increased costs of premiums. There are simply not enough cases to make an impact.

John Robertson:

Does the hon. Member for Leominster want to intervene?

Bill Wiggin (Shadow Minister, Environment, Food & Rural Affairs; Leominster, Conservative):

It is not the number of cases but the size of the pay-out that is significant. That may solve hon. Members’ difficulties.

Michael Lord (Central Suffolk & North Ipswich, Deputy-Speaker):

Order. The hon. Member for Leominster appears to have intervened on an intervention, but I am sure that John Robertson can cope with both interventions.

John Robertson:

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I think you give me more credit than I am due.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon answered his own question. I say to the hon. Member for Leominster that, if the amount is the problem, that must be examined, but it is not part of the Bill. [Interruption.] I thought that we were considering liability, not the amount of money that is paid out.

Bill Wiggin (Shadow Minister, Environment, Food & Rural Affairs; Leominster, Conservative):

The size of the premium reflects the risk. The risk is not necessarily in the number of claims but in their size. The insurance company essentially needs to get its money back and that is why the breadth of the liability, not the number of cases or claims, causes the premium to go up.

John Robertson:

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but if I were running an insurance company, I would be talking about potential amounts rather than the actual amounts. To go back to the earlier part of my contribution, we do not know how someone whose finger has been bitten off through a letterbox or who has been trampled by a horse and crippled could get any of the liability, but it appears that insurance companies are charging for such claims anyway, even though they may never have to look after such a case.

Andrew Dismore (Hendon, Labour):

My hon. Friend has been generous in giving way. Bill Wiggin made a point about the cost of the pay-out, but if there is only a tiny number of cases, the insurance can be averaged out across the horse industry—indeed, across animal insurance generally—and that pushes the premium down.

John Robertson:

My hon. Friend is right, and there is a problem.

I have spoken for far longer than I anticipated but I thank hon. Members for their interventions. Again, I thank the hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire for promoting the Bill. I hope that the Under-Secretary will deal with my questions and concerns and I wish the Bill well.

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